You Never Know When You Might Need A Zero ([info]ms_xeno) wrote,
@ 2006-12-13 11:36:00
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Entry tags:eat the duopoly, electoral reform, war is a racket

Hope Fades, Grudges Endure
Funny story, if you're a Crank, too:

In early 2005, I made the pilgrimage to Seattle because Ralph Nader was speaking. Good as the speech was, it doesn't stick in my mind at the moment. What does is the Brother Crank who was selling anti-war buttons and stickers out front where they were collecting the (modest) admission fee. He had on one of those Kucinich '04 shirts, and I asked him why he was still wearing it.

"To remind me," said the Brother.

"Of what," I asked.

"To not fall for this line of b.s. again," he replied, pointing to the "fear ends, hope begins" slogan.

I grinned, bought myself a few buttons, and went on to hear the talk.

So yesterday, Dennis Kucinich announced another Presidential campaign. Well, joy.

mr_xeno, devoted Kossack that he is, says that the buzz over there claims Kucinich will "move the dialogue to the Left." Uhhhh... sure he will. That's what happened before, right ? When Dennis last delivered his confused and crushed delegates into Kerry's hands with nary a whimper, Kerry immediately became anti-war. [snerk.]



I could rouse some enthusiasm for the man were he renouncing his piece of shit party and going the Green or Indy route, but I am emphatically NOT going through this round-'em-up-for-the-DLC bullshit again. I don't care if The Messiah comes down to Earth at last to campaign as a Democrat. No. Fucking. Way.

Quoth Dennis:

...At this moment, people’s trust in government is on the line. Trust in the Democratic Party is on the line. What does it say if only one month after the voters gave us control of Congress on the issue of Iraq, that we turn around and say we will keep funding the war?

What kind of credibility will our Party have if we say we are opposed to the war, but continue to fund it?...


Wake the fuck up, Dennis. Nobody has any real reason to trust the DP now, though plenty of articulate masochists out there routinely confuse their own masochism with "reason." And after what you did in '04, only an entrenched masochist would trust you with their time, money and votes again.

(As for the entrenched proggies, none of them will touch you with a ten foot pole, and you know it. That's what you get for being short and for actually governing all those years instead of becoming a General, I guess. Yet here you are again, ready to play towel boy for yet another overbred, self-absorbed, bloodthirsty quarterback that can't even be bothered to throw the fucking ball, even though that's what everybody's paying him for. **Or, NOTA preserve us, for THE SAME quarterback, AGAIN !!** In trying to impress your brethren in the party, who have no time for the issues you claim to care about, you are in fact, nothing but a towel boy to a bunch of towel boys. WTF ? This is what you call hope ? No wonder so many of us prefer the triune goddesses of apathy, anger and cynicism.)

Take a hike, Mister. >:


(Post a new comment)


[info]rpeate
2006-12-13 08:42 pm UTC (link)
"Nobody has any real reason to trust the DP now, though plenty of articulate masochists out there routinely confuse their own masochism with 'reason'."

My reason for supporting the Democratic Party is to end the Republican Party, which I see as far, far worse, as a viable force in American politics once and for all. I trust persons on a case-by-case basis.

Apathy and cynicism ensure the status quo. Anger can be channeled effectively.

See you Friday! :)

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[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 08:47 pm UTC (link)
But if Democrats continue to fund the war, their oppositon, as with so much else, is a hollow game.

I have come to often trust people who claim apathy, because at least they learn from what they've seen and done before. The folks who support Kucinich this time out thinking that the tired old "boring from within" strategy will stop the war or produce any other concrete good are accomplishing no more than the most apathetic non-voter out there, IMHO.

He screwed his followers last time out, and he owes us an apology at the very least. Not more of the same old crap disguised as action.

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[info]rpeate
2006-12-13 08:56 pm UTC (link)
"I lived in his congressional district for four years, and I can assure you, Dennis is only interested in Dennis," [info]thd3 said the day before yesterday. I don't know him that well. I like his stated views, in general, though I disagree with him on trade and the Department of Peace. I think the whole Government is the Department of Peace, including the Department of Defense. The purpose of defense is peace.

I won't support Kucinich, because I support someone I both like AND who I think has a chance of defeating the Republican. Sometimes I think my fellow liberal friends forget who the opposition is. It's the Right, not other members of the Left! :)

"He screwed his followers last time out . . . "

How so? By remembering who the real opponent is--the Republican?

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[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 09:08 pm UTC (link)
NOTA, how many times must we go over this:

If the voters want their candidate to have a chance, they must advocate for their candidate and vote for him/her. I have never understand why even in a primary, one must start out with the goal of appearing "reasonable." As if there were anything reasonable about starting the fucking war in the first place. We need more unreason and more anger, not more goddamn triangulation.

You add credence to my views that Kucinich is pissing in the wind to expect anythng from the "good liberals" in the DP. You are, with all due respect, more concerned with appearing moderate and respectable than in taking a stand. It's that which I can't abide. Kucinich would do better to break away from the DP and to recruit amongst the ranks of Indies and even non-voters. Their entrenchment in a particular way of thinking cannot possibly be any more iron-bound than your own.

Kerry would have sent more troops to Iraq and perhaps Iran as well. He wasted no time at all making sure that the anti-war movement knew its proper place-- beneath his heel. He was and is, therefore, my enemy, and Kucinich condoned that;Worked toward it, in fact. It's that which I can't forgive.

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[info]rpeate
2006-12-13 09:52 pm UTC (link)
"You are, with all due respect, more concerned with appearing moderate and respectable than in taking a stand. It's that which I can't abide."

You are, with all due respect, mistaken. The Democratic Party welcomes war opponents, even those who oppose all war in every case across the board.

I opposed the 2003 Iraq invasion and subsequent occupation. My first priority is to remove from power those who gave them to us, the Republicans. Gore would never have got us into Iraq, and Kerry would likely have got us out by now.

I don't care if you support Kucinich or not, but I think you misunderstand Kerry deeply.

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[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 10:04 pm UTC (link)
(Shrug.) I think I understood Kerry all too well. And I already told you that I will not support Kucinich nor anyone who runs under the DP banner, because their intentions may be good, but I don't trust them anymore.

Your camp will cut the man dead when the time comes, and I hope that my camp will flip him the bird this time around. He's earned it.

I don't want to be "welcomed" in a party that subsumes and undermines my interests at every turn. I want to be in a party where a candidate can stand on a podium and say, "We will end this war immediately. This war was a mistake that we should never have started" without worrying that somebody will think he/she is being mean and innappropriate.

I don't want a bunch of quasi-military "reporting for duty" (Kerry) blather or a soft-peddled, dimestore macho claim that "poverty is a weapon of mass destruction" (Kucinich). That may be true in some sense, but how maddening it is that the only way we can respectably communicate is in the language of militarism and war. As if it were the only metaphor that has any worthiness in public discourse.

I'll stay in the political wilderness, thankyouverymuch, with the motley, barely-affiliated and totally unwashed band of Indies, Reds, Greens, Anarchists, and (oh, horrors) even Libertarians until I somebody can offer me something better. The DP isn't it.

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[info]varro
2006-12-13 10:25 pm UTC (link)
The differences between Ralph Nader and the Dems are the differences between a Honda Accord and a Honda Accord Hybrid.

The differences between the Dems and Rethugs are the differences between said Accord and a Hummer with extra loud pipes and an engine intentionally let go out of tune to fund Halliburton's Hummer Engine Shop.

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[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Maybe that was true once, Varro. I don't think that's been the case for a long time now...

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[info]rpeate
2006-12-13 10:13 pm UTC (link)
"I want to be in a party where a candidate can stand on a podium and say, 'We will end this war immediately. This war was a mistake that we should never have started' without worrying that somebody will think he/she is being mean and innappropriate."

The Democratic Party is such a party.

You should trust who you like. I simply have adifferent (better) opinion of the Party than you do. Regardless, I'd support a great deal with which I disagreed to get rid of the Republican Party, and that is where our priorities differ. You seem to think it's okay to leave it alive, or that there is no difference between the two parties, and I cannot agree with either of those two propositions.

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[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Do you have a link to Obama saying this ? I would risk something truly death-defying, like brushing Butterscotch, to see that... :D

The differences between the national parties are like the differences between buying a Ford or a Chevy truck. On one, you might get a slightly better deal, a few extras, a nicer attitude from the salesperson and a more tasteful suit. But they're still both trucks. If you'd rather have a bicycle, you need to go to a bicycle shop. ;)

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[info]rpeate
2006-12-13 10:31 pm UTC (link)
I removed my Obama reference, because while he has called the Iraq war a mistake we should never have begun, and against which he voted, I do not know if he has called for an immediate end to it. I may have mis-spoken. Regardless, I do not think the Party would have any problem with his adding that second half. Pelosi didn't have any problem with Murtha's doing so.

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[info]jakesquid
2006-12-14 05:49 pm UTC (link)
"I want to be in a party where a candidate can stand on a podium and say, 'We will end this war immediately. This war was a mistake that we should never have started' without worrying that somebody will think he/she is being mean and innappropriate."

The Democratic Party is such a party.

Have you actually paid attention to the DP? If so, I don't think you could honestly claim such a thing.

On a fun note...

I got a call from DP fundraisers. I listened to their spiel ("We've won, but we used up ALL of our money.") and when they asked me for $100, I said, "You realize that I'm not a Democrat, right?"

As someone who lives in a state in which one does not register to a party and as one who last registered D (If I ever have, I'm not sure. When I haven't registered Independent or Green I usually register R.) at least 15 years ago, I find myself wondering why they thought I'd give them money.

But, I'll tell you what. As soon as the DP pushes for 100% publicly financed elections and enshrines that in their platform I will consider voting for them.

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[info]rpeate
2006-12-14 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Of course I, a Democratic voter since 1988, can honestly claim such a thing. I do not expect anyone to call Kucinich "mean" or "inappropriate" for stating his view. The beauty of the Democratic Party is that it is open to a far wider range of views than is either the Republican or the Green Party.

Excellent. As a Democrat who appreciates the big tent that is his party, I too support and advocate 100% publicly-financed elections. I'm glad we agree on that.

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The Big Tent = Big Bullshit
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-14 07:45 pm UTC (link)
he beauty of the Democratic Party is that it is open to a far wider range of views than is either the Republican or the Green Party.


IOW, the DP is a fine model of what Scruggs refers to below as "elite consensus." It does not elevate those who express (seemingly) unpopular but important opinions. Instead, it picks their pockets, eats their time and energy, and plows them under to decompose and feed some future crop.

Or, to borrow from an old Aesop's fable. Unions, POC, those who favor same-sex rights, and those who are genuinely anti-war (and the like) are nothing but Jackals, Dogs, and Wolves, invited on a hunt with a Lion. Together, the animals surprise a Stag, and kill it. The Lion tells the others to quarter the Stag and then places himself in charge of distributing the carcass equally amongst the hunters.

"The first share comes to me, for my part in the chase." Says the Lion. "The second share comes to me, as abattoir. Another share comes to me, for my part in the chase. As for the fourth quarter, well-- as for that, I would like to see which of you will dare to lay a paw upon it.

Grumbling amongst themselves, the remaining hunters slink off. One of them muttering under his breath:

"Ah, I see that we may share in the labors of the great, but we may not share in the spoils !"

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Re: The Big Tent = Big Bullshit
[info]rpeate
2006-12-14 08:01 pm UTC (link)
If you don't like the direction of a party, change it. Until you attempt to do so from the inside (and I don't see your Democratic registration) you have little right to grumble, and your grumbling makes about as much sense as that of someone who refuses to vote.

"Cynicism is a bad excuse to do nothing," said Bill Clinton, and it's still true, even from the Divine Left.

Howard Dean is a good example. He led the party to find its voice against the current Republican insanity in Iraq, and now he's the chairman of the Party. Many Dean supporters opposed what they saw as the weakness of Terry McAuliffe and the DLC, and saw Dean as a breath of fresh air. That is what you do: create change from within. Otherwise, you're just pissing in the wind. Best of all, the Democratic Party can be changed, unlike the monolith on the Right.

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Re: The Big Tent = Big Bullshit
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-14 08:14 pm UTC (link)
"If you don't like the direction of a party, change it."

Shared monopolies are anathema to true change. Without outside forces, the Big Two will continue to hold sway over the range of political discourse allowed. Which is why they worked so diligently together in this state and others to close the primary system, and to promote other neanderthal excursions that guarantee access for themselves alone. No outsiders will be allowed at the table. Ho hum. So much for democracy.

Having looked at Dean's actual record in Vermont (Joshua Frank covers it nicely in Left Out, and that section is readily available online via Google) and seen his utterly lackluster speech when he stumped here in '04, I remain bewildered as to why anyone considers him a force for change. Certainly watching the current crop of incoming Democrats whine about how an immediate call for troops to come home, impeachment, and the like, are all just for big babies doesn't do anything to enhance my faith in the boriing-from-within strategy.

And I hate to be a broken record, but fuck Bill Clinton. He and the rest of the DLC have done so much to advance the cause of cynicism and citizen withdrawal from the public sphere that they ought to get some kind of medal for it. Laud the shit out of him in your own space if you must, but that doesn't earn you any traction here.

Better you should quote somebody like Fannie Lou Hamer, Eugene Debs, Alice Paul or other crafters of disruption who were not afraid to embarass and frighten the Big Boys when it was clear that "boring from within," by itself, would never bring real change.

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Re: The Big Tent = Big Bullshit
[info]rpeate
2006-12-14 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Since we seem to be talking past each other with no prospect of either changing the other's mind, I see no point in continuing this debate, as much as I enjoy and respect you in general. You have your ideologic purity, and I have my pragmatism for the sake of getting things done. I am proud of every Democratic vote I have ever cast, as it has got us closer to a day when we can all "go Green". I relish the prospect of being able to agree with you on everything, and I see my path as the way to bring that about. We disagree on the real, not the ideal.

The Nutcracker should be good tomorrow night, no?

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Re: The Big Tent = Big Bullshit
[info]jalvascruggs
2006-12-14 09:46 pm UTC (link)
I doubt you understand much about political office. At the federal level, they're run like medium sized businesses. The selection process for candidates focuses mainly on people who are capable of mounting a marketing campaign and running a business which needs to take care of not terribly bright leaders of interest groups, who achieve their positions mainly by being good at moving up heirarchies. The party hierarchies themselves are that situation squared. It should be blindingly obvious that actual constituent interests will be handled with the most familiar method there is: spin. One might as well argue over whether buying gas at Exxon is better than buying it at BP. You're still buying gas.

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Letting the Republican Party Live = Big Bullshit
[info]rpeate
2006-12-15 12:25 am UTC (link)
I know very little, and understand even less. I am reminded of these lines from Bob Dylan:

I'm just average, common too;
I'm just like him, the same as you.
I'm everybody's brother and son--
I ain't different from anyone!
It ain't no use a-talking to me;
It's just the same as talking to you.

--"I Shall Be Free, No. 10"

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Re: Letting the Republican Party Live = Big Bullshit
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-15 03:40 am UTC (link)
Frankly, Rob, I think that Scruggs' argument deserves a bit more thought than that. You've been in the job market for a long time and seen the kind of games and personalities that operate amongst the climbers. I think that you'd get his point if you just reflected on it somewhat.

As for the idea that the DP is not "letting the GOP live," much less co-operating with its agenda in Iraq and elsewhere, I don't think that flies, either. Even Murtha's plan favors redeployment elsewhere in the Mid-East. The troops would not be coming home. :(

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[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-14 07:31 pm UTC (link)
Jake, I just about fell out of my chair when I spotted a call from former Secretary of State Phil Keising to return Oregon to the open primary system. Of course, it was buried in the Atlantic letters page, with no acknowledgement of Keisling's former career. So there you go.

BTW, do you ever check out the blogs Opera Glasses and Popcorn or Liberal Street Fighter ? You'd probably get a kick out of them. Not Naderites, just very, very grumpy people who write well and can't stand 99.9% of what issues from the DP's mouth on a regular basis.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
What ensures the status quo...
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 09:55 pm UTC (link)
... is supporting the Democrats.

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Re: What ensures the status quo...
[info]rpeate
2006-12-13 10:11 pm UTC (link)
And that view supports the Republicans, which to me makes you worse than any Democrat.

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(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 10:19 pm UTC (link)

"My reason for supporting the Democratic Party is to end the Republican Party"
moe howard university
poli sci major

js paine

(Reply to this)

please come attack me
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 10:27 pm UTC (link)
all you wild eyed jack ass riders
please come attack me and my pals

we're coo coo for repub victory


hell we'd split the votes
of siamese twins to get repubs elected
over the donkery

so come give me what for....

i'm waitin sailor


at stop me

(xeno whats our fuckin' url....???)

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: please come attack me
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 10:39 pm UTC (link)
We're even more motley and disorganized than I dreamed, Mr. Paine.

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/

He is pretty bereft of traffic these days, Dems. As you can well imagine.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Futility
[info]jalvascruggs
2006-12-13 10:38 pm UTC (link)
Voting at the national level, for either party, is always a futile gesture unless you're voting for third party. The ole devil, elite consensus, runs strong, deep and true through the political class. A Patriot Act follows on the heels of an Effective Death Penalty Act. A war of economic attrition is followed by an invasion. I can see different managerial styles, as they approach the ruling process, but when push comes to shove they're almost all of them keen on collective punishment, immiseration as a tool of governance and confident that successful applications of power serve as whole or partial justifications. The way the electoral system works, a vote for one Democrat or one Republican is effectively a vote for the elite factions they cater to. Good governance is an afterthought to that lot.

Third party voting is indirectly disruptive, at best, but is a hell of lot better than trying to force indifferent narcissists to live up to the myths and marketing they use to get elected.

So I'm with Ms. Xeno on this and I thank her for the alert. I was very fond of Kucinich at one point. I still think he's about decent a pol as you'll find in DC. Which is a pity, because he's not up to snuff.

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Futility
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-13 10:50 pm UTC (link)
Yep. There are plenty of people in the DP who you could classify as "decent." But decency isn't winning the day. And thanks to rpeate dropping by, I get a much-needed reminder that while rank-and-file progs in the party claim to prize decency (or decorum, which is what I think they really mean to say), they don't generally reward it in the ways that would really count. They were furious with Nader for his disloyalty (so called) and disruption of routine. He should have gone through the appropriate channels, they raged. Well, Kucinich did just that. He is all ready to do it again, or so it appears. They still won't be giving him the time of day. Surprise, surprise.

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The Senator From Hobbiton
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 12:41 pm UTC (link)
Dennis is the poster boy for disordered democrat thinking. As near as I can tell from a rigorous ten minute examination of the species Pwoggus Invertibrae; their "reasoning" tends toward the syllogistic magical thinking and goes roughly like this:

~I am against the war.

~I am a democrat.

~Therefore - the democrat party is against the war.

However, if one were to restate the above in real-world terms, it would be something like:

~I am an antiwar democrat

~The Democratic Party is prowar

~Therefore - I am an idiot

This utterly neurotic form of reasoning is exceeded in humor value to casual observers such as myself only by the Pwoggie impression that they somehow have influence inside their corrupt corporate party. But that's the subject for another post.

(alansmithee)

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-15 06:30 pm UTC (link)
~I am an antiwar democrat

~The Democratic Party is prowar

~Therefore - I am an idiot

:D

Socialists have a terrible rep in Pwog circles. Supposedly they're monobrowed and never bathe. Yet some pleasingly lucid reasoning issues forth from here:

...The main purpose of Kucinich’s candidacy is to bolster fading illusions that the Democrats constitute a “people’s party,” or at least that there is a progressive anti-war faction within it. He urges support for this supposed faction as a means of pressuring the party leadership to adopt an anti-war platform and wage a struggle against Bush and the Republicans. He is joined in this effort by left-liberal forces such as the Nation magazine and the “World Can’t Wait” and “United For Peace & Justice” coalitions, which promote the conception that protests and pressure will move the Democrats to the left...

-- Jerry White at World Socialist Web 12/15/06



It may not be propelled by a catchy post-folk tune, and yet it's clear as daylight. How do you like that ? ;)

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Nothing gets a pwoggie's boxers in a bunch faster than a socialist, a Green, or really anybody whose actually taken the time to think about what they believe and has the spine to do something about it. Trying making a firm statement of belief in the presence of a pwog sometime. It'll be mere seconds before he/she/it spews forth comforting-yet-meaningless words like "idealist" or "purist" or "please don't hurt me." (You don't need a gun or a knife to mug a pwoggie, just a firm opinion.)

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-16 04:19 pm UTC (link)
Then what do you make of the people like Amanda Marcotte (Pandagon), who can talk anyone under the table on Socialism, because she's read all the books, seen all the movies, etc. Yet you'll never see any positive coverage of bonafide activists if they haven't got the DP rubber-stamp. Or thinkers, if they haven't got tenure. Certainly the times I've mentioned Lefty feminists outside the Democrats' pen have been greeted in every feminist enclave I visit with a barage of yawns, if that much. Plus, put these bloggers within 1000' of a 3rd Party candidate and all of a sudden it's a full-blown Gitlinesque "NOT ONE VOTE FOR THE INTRUDER/SAVE THE DEMOCRAT" seizure.

I gave up on that site and others like it because the contradictions inherent in that approach are just too bizarre and depressing for me to deal with. Or maybe I was just afraid that if I imbibed it enough, it would cease to be bizarre and depressing and start to seem proper. Yes, it must be proper if so many people are going along with it. :(

If I were a Socialist, I think that I'd want it to be an embedded trait, and not just some brainy trappings that got shut in the closet and forgotten any time they threatened to have some genuine real-world impact.

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
(Anonymous)
2006-12-19 08:18 pm UTC (link)
I'm socialist and I bathe and I have two brows, but few comrades, sadly, very few comrades.

eeep!

Paul Curtin

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-21 10:51 pm UTC (link)
I gotta' say, the Socialists I meet in this town are more interested in discussion groups and hawking newspapers than in getting out, raising a ruckus, and maybe giving some stuff to the needy instead of asking for dollars.

Which isn't to say they're bad people. I just don't understand the approach. I also get sick of the ego-wars between them and the local IWW. Again, not because I dislike the local IWW crowd. It's just that if I wanted constumed soap operas, I could watch wrestling on TV.

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
(Anonymous)
2006-12-22 06:20 am UTC (link)
"I want to be in a party where a candidate can stand on a podium and say, 'We will end this war immediately. This war was a mistake that we should never have started' without worrying that somebody will think he/she is being mean and innappropriate."

The Democratic Party is such a party.

Are you serious?

As for the whole If-you-don't-like-it-change-it-from-within mantra, I've never met anyone who's tried to change from within without having "within" change them.

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Re: The Senator From Hobbiton
(Anonymous)
2006-12-22 06:25 am UTC (link)
Oh Dag-gam-it, the person who wrote the above post is that pain in the arse Radfem.

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Re: Holiday Greetings from Stumptown
[info]ms_xeno
2006-12-25 09:46 pm UTC (link)
You think you've got problems ? I can't even spell the word "costumed."

:o

Are you still using that email addy that has the word "side" in it ? I found it under a pile of last Winter's rubble, so I wasn't sure.

I owe a lot of the old Strife crowd some word, but I don't always know where they are.

Nothing like the holidays to melt one into a shambling sentimental heap. :o

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Right on, Ms. X!
[info]reechardc
2007-02-11 02:16 am UTC (link)
Dennis-the-K evidently loves the messiah drip-feed too much to jack out of his Dem schmooze support system.

Pity, too. He started political life in ballsy manner--blue collar populism vs. the banks, etc. Now it's putzville: belle-lettrist peace pledges, the Hollywood champagne circuit, Jedi mind tricks with Shirley MacLaine, and the whole pied piper routine you so nicely scored. Dennis-the-not-such-a-Menace!

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Re: Right on, Ms. X!
[info]ms_xeno
2007-02-18 02:29 am UTC (link)
messiah drip-feed ?!?!

Brother, I am so stealing that... 8)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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