It's a brand-new dance/We're bringin' it back ([info]ms_xeno) wrote,
@ 2008-05-02 12:07:00
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Entry tags:eat the duopoly, electoral reform, isms galore, war is a racket

The Truth Won't Set You Free.
However, it may momentarily brighten up your lunch hour[sic]. It sure as hell has done wonders for mine.

"I hope to God that poor fretful Bob Herbert [of Times fame] is finally right about one thing -- namely, that the pastor is not going away."

...In the neighborhoods and communities where Wright and his colleagues and predecessors have worked for decades -- we might even say, for a couple of centuries -- they've been anything but invisible. In fact, they've been indispensable. But in the social representation sold by the "corporate media" -- as Wright quite correctly calls them -- the Wrights are merely a curiosity when they're noticed at all.

That has all changed. Obama may or may not be toast after this brouhaha, and I for one couldn't care less, one way or the other. But the lasting legacy, let's hope, is that Jeremiah Wright and what he has to say are once again on the agenda.

Dr King and Malcolm put some of these topics on the table, back in the day. Then they got killed, and Malcolm was shoved into the footnotes of official history, while King suffered the equally dire fate of plaster sainthood... -- Michael J. Smith at Stop Me Before I Vote Again, 4/30/08




Nicholas Hart, in a comment from the same link:

...One of Bob's statements that really struck me as typical of liberal ignorance was this: "The question that cries out for an answer from Mr. Wright is why — if he is so passionately committed to liberating and empowering blacks — does he seem so insistent on wrecking the campaign of the only African-American ever to have had a legitimate shot at the presidency."

Yea, if only we could elect a Black President (tm), all the injustices faced by minorities would disappear. All the evidence points toward a business-as-usual, pro-corporate, pro-war presidency from Mr. Obama. The amount of melanin in a candidate's skin (or makeup of X and Y chromosomes, for that matter) has little to do with the concrete policies he/she would enact.

Condoleezza Rice is one of the most powerful officials in the United States. With logic like Herbert's, she should be the salvation for America's downtrodden. But of course while New Orleans was drowning, Condi trod down to Fifth Avenue to buy some $2000 boots.

If Herbert and his liberal friends genuinely want to see redress for the grievances of the poor and working class, then they need to understand that it is going to take more than platitudes about "hope" coming from politicians in the pockets of corporate America...




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[info]elevenoclock
2008-05-02 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I'd really like to hear talk about reparations.

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[info]ms_xeno
2008-05-03 04:07 pm UTC (link)
Hah. Against my better judgment, I was kibitzing some comment threads from the Bill Moyers show the other day. I was also over at Black Agenda Report reading some comments. In both cases, there's the fallout of the Wright-Obama severance and in both cases there's the inevitable White person chiming in with, "Well, why can't YOU PEOPLE JUST GET OVER THIS SHIT THAT HAPPENED 150 YEARS AGO !"

If there's going to be some sort of reparations, the first thing that other White folks are going to have to understand is that it wasn't over 150 years ago. If you ask me, the second thing we're going to have to explain to one another is that, yes, we can rig it so your poor Uncle Fred living in a one-room shack will not be handing over his SSDI to Will Smith. For reasons that I never quite get, people who object to perfectly reasonable ideas like to start off with the most grossly exaggerated example as to why it can't possibly be right or fair.

This is just me thinking aloud, of course. Feel free to disagree.

Edited at 2008-05-03 04:07 pm UTC

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[info]elevenoclock
2008-05-04 05:16 pm UTC (link)
I completely agree. The general outlook on all of these issues is just so impoverished--I mean we've never even had a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, anything. Entire swaths of people are just allowed to be complete infants when it comes to this. The collective denial has to be addressed and dealt in some way if we want to get anywhere. I think Obama's speech was good, as far as that goes.

yes, we can rig it so your poor Uncle Fred living in a one-room shack will not be handing over his SSDI to Will Smith.

That is hilarious. That is just so sad/funny and telling if that is someone's first reaction. I like to think of reparations in terms of services and resources being funnelled into disadvantaged communities in exactly the same ways they have been/are being refused/removed in the past and present.

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[info]ms_xeno
2008-05-06 01:41 am UTC (link)
...That is hilarious. That is just so sad/funny and telling if that is someone's first reaction...

I wish I could tell you that all that stopped when I moved here to Progressive Paradise, but I'd be lying. It's been about seven or eight years since the first time I lurked in a discussion about the issue, and I can still feel my jaw dropping and my eyes bugging out like it was yesterday. I had no clue so I guess now I've got... a thimble's worth of clue ? Does that count for anything ? :(

...I like to think of reparations in terms of services and resources being funnelled into disadvantaged communities in exactly the same ways they have been/are being refused/removed in the past and present...

If you have links regarding this on your own page or somewhere else, let me know.

Edited at 2008-05-06 01:41 am UTC

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[info]elevenoclock
2008-05-07 06:09 pm UTC (link)
If you have links regarding this on your own page or somewhere else, let me know.

I think I got turned on to that concept through discussion with other people but have no idea where resources might be that talk about ways of doing this, or whatever. I always thought it would be cool to have a radical think tank working in partnership with grassroots communities to implement ideas like this.

However, I should say that I don't think much of state-run resources. So if we did have mass re-investment in oppressed communities, I don't think it should be state run. I'm not sure what the alternative is at this point...

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[info]busted_english
2008-05-02 11:45 pm UTC (link)
I would have to agree with that assessment, but the other part that I really don't like is that it's obvious about 3 of the people leaving comments are white and they feel that they can accurately describe or prescribe the right kind of blackness. This disgusts me.

But all of the evidence doesn't really point to business as usual, all the evidence points to people actually trying to pay attention to politics. If Obama has done nothing else, it's that he's got 1.6 million people to make a donation to politics and to start paying attention, interacting, the people. Some of those people are going to be lifelong democrats (I'm not one of them and I never donated to the guy), but you cannot discount that and that is not "business as usual", his policies show something different.

His policies say that he might understand poverty, the idea to invest in poorer communities by creating jobs in those communities and reinvesting in that infrastructure, while people can receive welfare... that's going to help those who are impoverished by generational poverty. Yes, I know middle class white people don't care about that, because they don't understand that kind of poverty. But, I've heard the guy speak on real-live inner city non-middle class poverty issues. That's more than I heard from Edwards or Clinton on that matter, or any president in recent history. Even though I disagree with his position on welfare reform. But any guy who can come out and say he opposes mandatory 3 strike sentencing, understands crack vs. cocaine sentencing for what it really is, and wants to improve poor communities with the help of the church (and I'm not Christian, but I know how black churches in particular have helped black communities when it comes to social welfare... not prosperity preachers, but those entrenched with the belief that the church must help the poor) gets my fucking vote.

I don't agree with everything the guy says or does, we have issues, immigration is one, the way he talks about the black family is one, there are many other things. But these are our options a pro-war hawk who says shit like "obliterate Iran" in hypotheticals, whose husband enacted some of the very laws that have destroyed my community. Or this new guy who for the most part tries to strike a balance between looking tough and negotiating, that says we should deal with low level drug dealers as a "minimum wage" affair... which by the way it pretty much is. These guys spend a lot of time in those traps for between 100-400 and a lot of that money goes to bail them out and they're basically like sharecroppers, because then they're in even more debt with the dealer. This guy ain't perfect, but compared to the alternatives...

I'm not from the nostalgic wing of the democratic party, even for my grandparents they're not nostalgic either, they vote that way because the democrats have been the people who have talked more about social issues. I realize this might be an issue for people who are young supporters for Obama, that everyone needs to tell them that this guy is not a god. But this kind of talk is seriously condescending to those of us who are pragmatic because we have to be, because we have been ignored for so fucking long that it really isn't going to make a difference who is in the White House if they don't realize that we're out there.

I really hate how this Wright/Obama thing turned out. But I appreciate everything Rev. Wright has done, even the press conference. I will continue to appreciate him, because he's a member of my community. I don't want him to go away. I want the supporters of Obama to realize that we have to break the mold of acceptable blackness, and what is palatable to white people.

Condoleeza Rice is not, nor has she ever been of Senator Obama's position. It is pretty obvious that Condi is a bootstrapper and she believes strongly in self-reliance. It is racism that would allow us to conflate the two on the similarities of skin color, because there have been just that few black people that one would know the names of that would allow us to make the comparison. You're comparing a black republican, to a black democrat. He could have said Michael Steele and Obama and it would have been more apt.

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[info]ms_xeno
2008-05-03 04:59 pm UTC (link)
To be frank, I don't know how to criticize Obama without ending up in the pit of "proscribing one kind of blackness." What does that mean, anyway ? There are a million ways to praise or criticize a Black citizen for not being "really Black." This thread at BAR, for instance, contains both White and Black variations of that theme. Including a self-proclaimed White guy or two who likes Obama because he "gets it" about race by not making a big deal out of it like those other Black folks do.

As for SMBIVA, they have always operated from the default position of the Democratic Party being a corrupting influence on everything it touches, and therefore not to be trusted. If the peanut gallery over there were to suddenly start singing Obama's praises and not those of any other Democrat, what would that say ?

...But all of the evidence doesn't really point to business as usual, all the evidence points to people actually trying to pay attention to politics. If Obama has done nothing else, it's that he's got 1.6 million people to make a donation to politics and to start paying attention, interacting, the people. Some of those people are going to be lifelong democrats (I'm not one of them and I never donated to the guy), but you cannot discount that and that is not "business as usual", his policies show something different...


Personally, I think it's way too soon to tell if all those newly-mined voters are going to stick around after the big show is over. I was expecting this election season to be an unparalleled snore but I've only been half correct. The candidates are proving to be a snore, but the public reactions are where all the big surprises will be;If there are any. (And I admit to being utterly surprised at the hubris of FOX and its ilk, thinking that they could keep total control of Wright's message without breaking a sweat.) What if Clinton II gets the nod against all reasonable assumptions and snubs Obama by giving the veep post to somebody else ? What's going to happen with all those people invested at some level in his campaign ? Will he direct them to forgive and forget ? Will they listen ?

I have my own predictions for that and they're not pleasant, but that's from years of watching various legitimate social movements be defanged and pocketed by Democrat after Democrat. I guess we'll see if this time is different.

About Steele, isn't he also a Republican ? Wikipedia seems to think so.

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[info]busted_english
2008-05-03 10:57 pm UTC (link)
I'm talking about the "oreo-bama" comments and judges on his authenticity. I realize people don't understand how that kind of shit happens, but as a biracial person I'm tired of white people telling me how I can be black and how a "real" black person would act. And I'm tired of a community that doesn't give a shit about me at other time talking like they know us and can tell us how to be black.

I understand this want to categorize, but I don't think that can ever come from a people who have never been us. I don't like the white guys who think he "gets it" by not making it about race, because it's pretty obvious that they're not listening to a dude who obviously understands the history of racism in this country (if only from a black perspective because he totally made me angry with that slavery was the original sin thing), but isn't making a big deal about it because he needs to win an election.

That's the point, plenty of black people do this compartmentalizing and of course they would never know this because they don't ever know us. I sent you Dunbar's, "We Wear The Mask" and that's pretty much how a sizable chunk of the population operates. They don't know that some of code-switch (and it's obvious Obama does, too), they don't know our goals or our connections to our communities, they don't know the functions of the black church. It's pretty obvious to me that a majority of this country is still thinking that "we're just like them". When we're not.

What if Clinton II gets the nod against all reasonable assumptions and snubs Obama by giving the veep post to somebody else ?

I think this line of questioning ignores what's already happened in the campaign, they've both already said that they would not be the other's VPs. Obama has said many times he has no want to be the vice president and he does not want to run for president again at a later time. So, it wouldn't be a snub, he doesn't want it, he's gone publicly on record saying that.

What's going to happen with all those people invested at some level in his campaign ?

He's going to continue with community organizing. They will go on the help the democratic campaign nominee, but also other people in their towns to win government positions. His whole platform is about civic participation and how people can change government if they just participate in it. So the direct to forgive and forget is there, and he's said that from the beginning. He holds no grudges. His supporters that aren't on the internet will probably continue helping him with the community organizing.. The ones who have been in the thick of what Hillary Clinton has done, will not.

The comparison to Steele would be apt because he's a quiet guy who actually participates in the black community, aware of his blackness, but doesn't "make race" an issue, and he is not afraid to criticize his own party for racism, and is a rising star. If you just had to pick a black republican to compare him to, this would be it. But it would only be on those points, because their policies are extremely different, but how they operate politically in understated ways is pretty similar. The guy isn't awesome in the least... but if you had to pick a black Republican that he was most like (recently) it would be this guy.

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[info]ms_xeno
2008-05-06 01:30 am UTC (link)
I don't really share your faith, owing to my own deep disgust with the machine and (nearly*) everyone in it. What the candidates swear never to do they will probably end up doing tomorrow. Or is it the other way around ? Your assessment that I'm just going on what I know personally is, of course, correct. That's probably true of most of the regulars at SMBIVA. And for whatever compartmentalizing they/we/I have done, they are at least getting some stuff right. They don't keel over calling for the smelling salts at the mere mention of Farrakhan's name, for instance. They can turn a jaundiced eye towards Israeli policy without indulging in Anti-Semitism (the real kind, as opposed to the plastic kind idiots trot out every time anyone complains about some asshole like Lieberman). Perhaps I don't ask for enough, but in my universe stuff like that at least counts for something.

OTOH, there isn't any one website I know of out there that manages to get it all correct. That one has impeccable feminist cred except that I can't follow all the intellectual gymnastics and Buffy bores me. That other one is light on the intellectual pissing contests but they tolerate too many right-wingers and what's with all the trans-bashing, anyway ? That other other one is great on economic policy, but I don't understand why they think Larry Flynt should speak at our peace rally when he's a racist, sexist pig himself. That other other other one has some of the best anti-war writing I've ever read, but I'm about the only person there who's not totally into Libertarianism. Etc etc. It never ends.

*Maybe some of these folks, especially the younger ones, really will stay involved with community issues after this miserable campaign is over. Maybe those were the folks who would have found their way in anyway. In any case, if my small experience in political organizing and activist stuff is any indicator, the closer they stay to the ground the more worthwhile as activists and as humans they'll be;In part because they'll have to face every day the people they work with/for and in part because the very qualities that make them good at what they do will make them unfit to rise through the ranks the way candidates for high office do. I guess time will tell.

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[info]busted_english
2008-05-06 01:44 am UTC (link)
I don't really share your faith, owing to my own deep disgust with the machine and (nearly*) everyone in it. What the candidates swear never to do they will probably end up doing tomorrow. Or is it the other way around ?

But that's not a faith. As I stated before, I'm pragmatic because I have no other way, I have no horse in this race regardless. I don't believe in this/Obama at face. What I believe is that a lot of the "assessments" of Barack's character aren't about him, his legislation, or his personality at all. It has to do with a taint of the party. This is one of the reasons that white feminist discourse on this guy is so lacking. They're attacking him on not being the right kind of male through a white lens. Just like a lot of these attacks on the websites are about him not doing "black" right.

In my opinion it's okay to disagree, but it's not okay to use our identities as a reason to disagree with us based on an assessment that is made through the lens of white people understanding how blacks should be... which is what I'm seeing in comments. That's not an attack on website and it doesn't mean they don't have other great points. I would think that in talking to me you would understand that I'm not into that sort of polarization. I'm not interested in anything being either/or.

I don't think Obama will deliver on all his promises, and we can already see that he has had to "bend and not break" on Wright. I'm not talking about white people compartmentalizing. I'm talking about black people compartmentalizing. I'm talking about a community of people who have to compartmentalize to participate in this society and that's a normal interaction mode. That cannot be unapologetically black and still succeed.

But people are signing up for Obama's Fellows programs right now with the understanding that even if he loses, they're still going to be helping the democratic party. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's obvious that some will drop out, but it's also obvious that some will keep participating.

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[info]ms_xeno
2008-05-06 02:17 am UTC (link)
...They're attacking him on not being the right kind of male through a white lens. Just like a lot of these attacks on the websites are about him not doing "black" right...

You're probably right. But I've been holding an ever-increasing percentage of the feminist blogworld at arm's length for several years now, so I can't either concur or deny that's what they've been doing. I have a lot of residual sympathy for the phenomenon you describe since obviously that's the environment I come out of so I've done it, too. But I can feel sympathy for somebody's POV and still grasp at an intellectual level that's it's not working towards certain professed goals. (Just as I can attempt to understand one culture's masks based on the ones I myself have had to don from time to time in places where some portion of my own culture hasn't been the dominant one.) Anyhow, as I stated somewhere else during one of the seemingly-infinite race flaps at Pandagon, there's no point in my pretending to be some champion on race issues when I've bailed on most of (U.S.) feminism for other reasons;It's no place for a person who wants to talk electoral reform, for instance;Might just as well get myself a helium canister and recite the spiel in Donald Duck's voice because those folks don't take it more or less seriously either way.

Unfortunately, I can also see the "Goats' Dessert*" in trying to criticize Obama in terms of policy issues. In some interactions with supporters both Black and not, both online and in person, I've had people tell me that I shouldn't even criticize the man's POLICIES openly because of course even if I'm not intending to accuse him of being "the wrong kind of Black" of course that's what others will get from my critique. So if I can't do that, what then ? I can just say that he bothers me for much the same reason Clinton II does;Which opens up a whole new can of worms. (See every discussion ever regarding the pitfalls of White liberals saying, "But why can't we just be color-blind and forget all this Black/White stuff ?")

Gack. :(

*"Goats' Dessert," according to the poet/essayist Albert Goldbarth, is a fable about two goats who each tugged at the opposite end of the same sweet morsel;Both starved to death because neither would let go. IOW: A Lose-Lose Situation.



Edited at 2008-05-06 02:19 am UTC

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[info]busted_english
2008-05-06 02:21 am UTC (link)
What policy issues in particular? Me and him don't agree on a lot of policies. So, I just want to know what objections you have in particular?

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[info]ms_xeno
2008-05-06 02:30 am UTC (link)
Well, the saber-rattling in the Mid-east doesn't do a whole lot for me. The health plan ? Also a big thumbs down. I really, really want a candidate who can say "single-payer" out loud without stuttering. Granted there's not really a prominent Democrat alive who can do that. Hell, my own Union couldn't do that when I was Union and it turns out that the anti-nationalized-healthcare thing has been a major, if under-examined, pillar of organized Labor in the U.S. for decades now. Go figure.

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[info]elevenoclock
2008-05-07 06:14 pm UTC (link)
I want to know how Obama stands on welfare reform and prisons. I tried to find out a couple of weeks ago and couldn't suss it out. I'm reminding myself to try again, but if you have any insight into that, I'd love to hear it.

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